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Thread: Hypocricy

  1. #11
    Freddytattoo's Avatar
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    Hey where did the comment saying mark stole Lou carluccis template go. It's true how can mark get mad he's not the original builder. Is all I'm saying it was his choice to fly to mikes no one made him do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDreamDesign View Post
    thats a fair and well reasoned response Asmodeus. and thank you for the part 6 compliment :P i feel like ive spent more time on that than ANY glove.

    Mark and I are working out how to stop this drama currently and we'll let people know when its all settled and done.
    please don't let mark talk you out of making a template glove we need more places to get them from.

  2. #12
    DarkDreamDesign's Avatar
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    we're working on something.

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  4. #13
    Knifegloves's Avatar
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    ^^^ What he said.

    Jameson and I are trying to work things out and put this all behind us. Give us some time to work things out and hopefully we can turn this all into a better situation for everyone.

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  6. #14
    Knifegloves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus View Post
    This is a really, really hairy situation. I'm almost afraid of saying my two cents because well...I'm selfish as fudge. And Mark is one of the best builders around. Mark your part 1 gloves are iconic. No one else does them like you. You are the master of the part 1 and 2, and I don't think anyone else will ever get them like you do. And Jameson is also one of the best builders around. As a mega fan of the Part 6 glove, dude...you nailed it 100% Your part sixes are jaw-dropping. I've spent more time looking at that glove, than actually working in my life I think. And you nailed that sucker so much. You weren't even born while I was drawing this glove man. From magazine pictures. Your part 6 is just...no words. It's a masterpiece.

    I don't want anyone angry with me or anything. What I mean is...I get both sides of the issue here.

    I get why Mark is angry. No the templates don't belong to him. but yeah he did actually spend time AND money to go over at Mike Becker's to ponder the part 1 glove's templates. It is his work in a sense. I 100% respect the time and effort he put into recreating the part 2 templates to the utmost degree. Because IMO (and I don't want to ruffle feathers here, don't kill me Mark) the templates are Part 2. I mean it's two movie shoots, a couple dozen photoshoots, broken blades, broken rings, and a spray painting away from the original 1984 glove. Still it IS the glove. And I get why he'd want the secrecy. After all, Mark's the one who physically went and paid for access to the Lou Carlucci armature. I mean his angle is: Consider the secrecy part of the payment, along the money. It's his build, it's his rules IMO.

    On the flipside, I get Jameson's angle too. We are all mega fans of Elm Street here. Templates are one thing, but artfulness is another. I have every glove of Ken Hastings because I love his artistry (I really hope he pulls through with that Maggie glove. I've been waiting like 8 years now, and it was supposed to ship in January...). Template wise? Eh. It's really down to the artist to make these templates pop out. Accurate or not. I get it. It's a 1000$ glove, with only half going to the builder. Well 40% apparently. The rest is going to a guy who literally screwed over people (people on this forum) and sold 1000$ gloves with ACCURATE templates that were well...not accurate at all.

    The fact is, I don't want to diminish the incredible effort Mark spent, poured into researching the original glove's templates. It truly is your work, and I 100% believe you should be credited as the man who came back to the community with the first 100% accurate Lou Carlucci templates. I don't want you to blacklist me forever from purchasing a template glove. Because Mark, I understand that even you say that 1000$ for a template glove is overkill. But it's your agreement with Mike Becker and I respect that. You spent hours, and thousands of dollars to make this your breadmaker, and I really respect that.

    I know that Jameson came off as somewhat asshole-ish in his videos ( sorry Jameson you kind of did haha) but still he had very good points. We are all glove collectors, who are perpetually searching for the holy grail. If I bought a 1000$ template glove, I sure would want people to know why this glove was worth 1000$. It's way too much cash to pay for a replica you can't photograph in the way you want. The price is on Mike Becker yeah, but he's still a guy who screwed over people. I'm still not over that as a glove fan. Incredible artistry or not. Jameson's point is that no matter the templates, every artist brings something to the table and at the same time, love of the glove brings us together also. When I'll be ready to purchase an ultimate part 1 Mark, I'll still go to you. Because your work has proven itself, over the actual templates. And when I want an ultimate Part 6 I'll go to Jameson, even if he put his templates up. Because his artistry matters the most. I've seen his work. I know it's worth it.

    My God I am not making sense am I? God I really hope I'm not putting myself on your bad side Mark. I really don't. I absolutely understand the effort, time and money you spent into recreating these templates. You are to be commended by every Freddy fan on planet Earth. But 1000$ gloves with 400$ going to a known scammer...Even you admit his gloves were bullshit. Like I said I'm a huge part 6 fan, and no offense but his part 6s are kind of fucking wrong in almost every way. Shit I know where the screen used prop is (not many people know haha. It's so obvious when you know though), and his accurate part sixes are iffy at best.

    I don't think Jameson should use the flattened templates because it's Mark's money and efforts, that brought these to existence. It's his work and that's that. But if that's something to be respected, then people taking pictures and videos of their 1000$ gloves, should be ok too.
    I totally understand your points and believe me, I tried to get Mike to lower the prices for the Template Gloves. But I respected that if it weren't for Mike agreeing to let me do this, it wouldn't have ever happened. So, I agreed to let Mike be the one who makes the rules when it comes to the glove. Sure, I'm the builder and the one who recreated the templates... but I still viewed it as Mike's project. It was part of our original agreement that I would agree to execute this project according to his wishes. He wanted certain things kept secret and exclusive to the owners (so did I, though). I felt that with a price tag that high, people should have a sense of exclusivity with it and that's why we asked people to try to keep them under wraps as much as possible. But I also understand the desire to show off one's newly collected piece. So, after the recent events, I no longer am asking that of customers... so that's now in the past. It will now be up to the owner's discretion as to whether or not they want to show it off.

    I also understand Jameson's perspective. I don't own the templates and he feels it should be public domain since they're not unique templates that I created. They are my replicas of Lou's templates. But when I got into glove building in 2007, we were all trying to create the most accurate replica possible (that hasn't changed) and there was an aura of respect and ownership for each builder's templates. They were their templates and theirs alone and copying them or distributing them without the permission of the person who created them was cause for public shaming and ridicule from those within the community. Given that that was the environment that I was "brought up" in as a glove builder, it's still ingrained in my mentality as a builder because it was pretty much doctrine back then. We all have our own methods of creating our templates. We've all looked at hundreds of photos, movie stills, and videos showing the gloves we admire and we've referenced those resources to try to create our own replicas. I had the fortunate opportunity to actually do it in person with the Hero glove. So, the Part 1/Part 2 templates that I was able to create were the most accurate ever made by a builder to date. I was proud of that and I wanted to protect the work that I did because it was an exclusive item for me and one I was proud to offer to the community. So, when the rules that I abide by started to get broken, I admittedly flipped my lid. My Template Gloves are my pride and joy and I was very protective of them and wanted to preserve that sense of ownership over the templates (I was the one who did the work and spent the time/money to recreate them after all). So, to see another talented builder obtain access to those templates and show them off like he did, I was very angry and upset because I felt tremendously disrespected as a fellow builder.

    But what's done is done. So, how do we move forward from here? Jameson and I are working things out between us... so we'll see what develops from here on out.

  7. #15
    johnp's Avatar
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    I'm curious if Lou Carlucci would find there to be any significant ethical distinction between carefully examining and measuring his original, physical armature in order to reproduce it for profit, and hammering out a replica's armature in order to reproduce it for profit.

    I think a lot of the moral claims that have been offered in this ongoing "debate" are extremely questionable and difficult to justify.

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  9. #16
    Knifegloves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnp View Post
    I'm curious if Lou Carlucci would find there to be any significant ethical distinction between carefully examining and measuring his original, physical armature in order to reproduce it for profit, and hammering out a replica's armature in order to reproduce it for profit.

    I think a lot of the moral claims that have been offered in this ongoing "debate" are extremely questionable and difficult to justify.
    The same argument could be said of any Freddy mask. Aren't they just copying the makeup from movies and therefore making a profit based on the copyrighted image of Freddy Krueger? Technically, yes.... but no one ever raises that issue.

    Given that all glove builders are trying to replicate the gloves they see in the movies, we're all trying to create our own replicas of screen-used items. Using a replica created by a fellow-builder as your resource for creating your own gloves is crossing that ethical line. That builder did the work by referencing the glove on screen (or in my case, in person) to create their replica and the same should be expected of other builders. Don't cross the ethical line of copying the work of one of your fellow artists. Glove building/collecting is a community of fans with similar interests and with that, there should be a standard of ethics when it comes to those who choose to build gloves. Just like recasting a mask sculpted by another artist is frowned upon. James Darkride sculpts his masks based on photos of the makeups in the movies. He put in the time to sculpt it and recreate what he sees on screen. It would be wrong for another mask maker to buy his mask, make a recast of it, then make his own masks using the mold that was created from James' mask. Glove building is unique in a sense because each item has to be hand-crafted from scratch.... whereas a mask just needs to be sculpted once and then duplicated by pouring a mold of it. A builder creating their templates is similar to a sculptor creating their masks from clay. They are referencing the makeup (i.e. glove) seen in the movie. Flattening another builder's glove, copying the templates, and then making your own gloves with those templates is ethically identical to recasting a mask and we all know that that is crossing a moral line. If you want to create your own replicas, put in the work and "sculpt" your own templates. Don't try to take advantage of the work done by your fellow artists (unless they give you permission to do so, of course). Just respect your fellow builder's wishes when it comes to their own gloves and all will be fine in glove-land.
    Last edited by Knifegloves; 11-02-2015 at 01:12 PM.

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  11. #17
    johnp's Avatar
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    Mark, I think you're missing my point. In the case of masks, suppose for the purposes of argument it were possible to take a high-fidelity three-dimensional scan of screen used prosthetics that would allow you to, with extreme accuracy, replicate the original sculpt from part 4 (this may in fact be possible). We can suppose that this would require an investment of time, energy, money, and skill much greater than simply recasting the prosthetics using conventional recasting techniques. Then my question, in this circumstance, would be: I'm curious if Kevin Yagher would find there to be any significant ethical distinction between doing this with original, screen used part 4 prosthetics in order to produce a replica "template mask" for profit, versus recasting an existing replica part 4 mask for profit.

    Many of your arguments center around the amount of time, energy, money, and skill you invested into painstakingly examining the original artifact and skillfully reproducing it. I'm not disputing this, nor am I disputing that this is probably a much greater investment than simply hammering out an existing replica's templates. My point is that the amount of work you're putting in may not be the factor that distinguishes ethical from unethical behavior. You're still copying Lou Carlucci's original templates by directly referencing the original, physical artifact. You're not creating your templates purely from publicly available film footage, photos, etc. like other builders, but from privileged access to the original screen used prop. You're just going about it in a way that is not as crude as hammering out the original templates and tracing them. So it's possible that the "ethnical line" here is less clear than you think, and it's possible that your behavior is also morally objectionable. (To be clear, I'm not saying that it is or is not, simply that the ethnical distinction between the two types of behavior is not well supported by your arguments, and I'd be curious how the original makers of the screen used props would feel about this distinction.)

    To make another analogy: suppose that I had been given unprecedented access to physically examine a famous painting, and took such detailed measurements of the original that I was able to repaint an extremely accurate replica myself, after much painstaking work. Then I got upset when someone else took a digital scan of my replica to create and sell prints, because I had put so much work into my replica. In this scenario, it would not be surprising to me if the original artist did not really care how much work I had put in to my replica, and saw both types of behavior as unethical copying of his or her original artwork.

    I understand that much of the activity in this community centers around replication of screen used props. I think that is part of what creates ethical confusion in cases like this.

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  13. #18
    neversleepagain2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegloves View Post
    I think you're getting all riled up over nothing here. There are probably less than 10 true Template Gloves out there right now. They're still very rare so that has no affect on the value. Mike's Template gloves were severely inaccurate (although you say that yours isn't). Mike didn't even have the proper templates to build yours so I'm quite sure you don't even own a "Template Glove" despite that's what you paid Mike for. I offered you a complete rebuild for free and you declined it. Now, Jameson Michael Knapp of Dark Dream Design has my templates that I created while referencing the Hero in person and he has begun using them to build his own gloves. If you should be angry with anyone, it should be Jameson because by flattening my glove and then leaking the templates and using them for his own gloves... he has pretty much destroyed the value of all Template Gloves.
    I know Mike better than that, he wouldn't do that to me. You, i don't know so well. There was a pre-existing agreement for people that already had them built and despite your opinion, when you went and made more, that devalued them too.
    One, two, freddys coming for you....

    three, four, better lock your door....

    five, six, grab your crucifix....

    seven, eight, better stay awake....

    nine, ten, never sleep again....


    Every town has an Elm street

  14. #19
    Knifegloves's Avatar
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    To be certain, just put it to the test. Send me a few pics of your glove's parts and I'll tell you. It'd be a very easy way to confirm anything.

  15. #20
    neversleepagain2010's Avatar
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    I will pass. While i understand you have your scaling tools, i believe Mike builds the better copy. Thanks though.Theres just something about Mikes weathering. If you want to see my old copies though, Sonof100bastards on photobucket.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I got a deal on the template gloves because at first, the Freddy's dead pants didn't come through for me. But it grinds my gears that you can do essentially the same thing and then complain when someone else does it.
    One, two, freddys coming for you....

    three, four, better lock your door....

    five, six, grab your crucifix....

    seven, eight, better stay awake....

    nine, ten, never sleep again....


    Every town has an Elm street

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